Apropos December 19 1993 and Again in Christian Order October 1994

Photograph: Pope Paul VI and Jean Guitton. Undated.

Claim

The following quotation is found all over the cyberspace. It's attributed to the philosopher Jean Guitton:

The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the Mass was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a mode that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy…There was with Pope Paul Half dozen an ecumenical intention to remove, or, correct, or at least relax, what was as well Catholic, in the traditional sense, in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass.

Information technology is not inconceivable for Guitton to make such a statement, given that Guitton was close friends with Paul Half-dozen¹. Notwithstanding, the quotation is remarkable and deserves a 'fact-cheque' treatment.

I found four semi-independent sources for this quotation. I'll draw them in the social club that I found them.

Source 1: Concerning

The beginning time I found this quote cited was past the SSPX.ⁱⁱ The most common citation provided for this quotation is this:

Jean Guitton on December 19, 1993 in Concerning (17), p. 8ff.

Aproposⁱⁱⁱ was a traditional Catholic magazine. Like then much of American Cosmic history, it looks fascinating but has fallen into obscurity and is difficult to find.⁴

I have been in contact with the wonderful librarians at Burns Library, Boston College, to ask most the December 1993 event of Apropos. They have checked the entire issue, and study nothing authored past or even about Guitton. (One of the cherry-red flags of the quote is that information technology cites a journal upshot, but gives no commodity championship. Was Guitton the author? An interviewee? Was he but quoted?)

As an aside, ane Kansas library's itemize said that they had this issue. After a chat with several staff member (God bless 24/7 online reference desks), they said regrettably they did not take that issue and their listing was not correct. The perils of library catalogs!

Source 2: Christian Order

The second almost common commendation was frequently tacked on to the ane above:

Jean Guitton on December nineteen, 1993 in Apropos (17), p. 8ff [likewise in Christian Gild, October 1994].

Christian Lodge was some other traditional Catholic magazine. They accept graciously provided an alphabetize of their old issues. In the October 1994 upshot, there is no article past Guitton, or anything evidently near him. In that location is the possibility that he was quoted in an commodity, but not mentioned in the title. I have been unable to asking a copy of this commodity.

Source 3: Latin Mass Magazine

Catholic Apologetics^five (annotation the typo in the URL – always a factor in research, and specially and so with online enquiry) names yet another source, with a confusing caption.

In an article titled "The Bewitchery of the Tridentine Mass," Central Alfonso Stickler discusses the protestantizing of the Mass and mentions that Jean Guitton, a friend of Paul 6, said his purpose was to "assimilate as much every bit possible of the new Catholic liturgy to Protestant worship" (Latin Mass Mag, Summertime 1995). Then, to directly quote Mr. Guitton in Christian Guild, October 1994…

The Latin Mass Magazine commodity⁶ confirms that Key Stickler did indeed say this, just this really complicates the state of affairs. Stickler is the one of the best sources one could hope for in Rome, but rather than bring u.s.a. closer to the source, we are instead farther removed from it. Stickler says:

French philosopher Jean Guitton says that Pope Paul VI revealed to him that it was his [the Pope's] intention to assimilate equally much equally possible of the new Catholic liturgy to Protestant worship. Clearly, it is necessary to verify the true pregnant of this remark.

Stickler cites no one but Guitton himself, so while I can verify that Stickler said Guitton said this, this source is otherwise useless for my purposes.

Source 4: Radio-Courtoisie

Now, things are going to get complicated.

This colorful website⁷, which as far as I tin tell is called "The Only 1, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church" named a fourth source forour quotation:

(Broadcast Dec xix, 1993 by Radio-Courtoisie, Paris).

The first question I ask – is this plausible? – checks out, as Guitton has been discussed on Radio-Courtoisie⁸.

I paid for a year's subscription so that I could get access to archival broadcasts. No thing what I searched, I could not find a circulate by or with Guitton in 1993. In fact, I couldn't find any broadcast for December nineteen, 1993, with or without Guitton.

I searched for the broadcast date and Guitton, and found almost as many results as my first search for the quotation itself, which is interesting considering that they did not come up in my initial sources.

From Angelus Press^ix:

During a radio plan devoted to Paul Half dozen (December xix, 1993, on Radio Courtoisie), Jean Guitton described in the following terms the intention Paul Six had in devising the new rite: 'First of all, Paul Vi's Mass is presented as a banquet, and emphasizes much more the participatory aspect of a banquet and much less the notion of sacrifice, of a ritual cede before God with the priest showing only his back. Then, I do not think I'yard mistaken in saying that the intention of Paul Vi and the new liturgy that bears his name is to ask of the faithful a greater participation at Mass; information technology is to make more than room for Sacred Scripture and less room for everything…–some would say for magic, others for transubstantiation, which is of Catholic religion. In other words, Paul VI evinced an ecumenical intention to efface, or at to the lowest degree to correct, or at least to relax what is likewise Catholic, in the traditional sense, in the Mass, and to converge the Mass, I echo, with the Calvinist Supper.'

This is an extremely helpful quote, and not just considering it provides similar citation information. The quotation provided from Guitton is non the one for which I'yard looking, just it is thematically similar. Some other scarlet flag for me in this quest is that the quotation in question always appeared in exactly the same way. The same ellipses, the same wording, the aforementioned citation format (that in itself is troubling), is different how data on the internet normally works. A quotation from Jane Austen may be attributed to Jane Austen, to her novels, to the characters, with or without the date, in italics, with quotations, etc.

If Guitton said this quote, he likely said information technology first in French. If he said it on a French radio broadcast, he definitely said it in French. Given how translations work, I would expect to see the French original, and possibly variant translations. I take so far seen neither.

However, the fact that I accept a similar quotation from him is the greatest proof then far that that this quotation might exist real.

The trouble is that the broadcast does non seem to be.

Searching once more for the circulate engagement and the radio proper noun, I found this from the SSPX¹⁰:

Finally, leaving bated many other judgments, we reach the testimony of Jean Guitton (the author of Paul Vi Cloak-and-dagger). On December 19, 1993, during a fence on Lumiere 101 (Radio Courtoisie), he affirmed that:

'Paul VI'south intention apropos the liturgy, concerning putting the liturgy into modern languages, was to reform the Catholic liturgy so that it would closely coincide with the Protestant liturgy… with the Protestant Supper."'

Later on he said:

'…I repeat that Paul VI did everything in his power to bring the Mass—beyond the Council of Trent—into understanding with the Protestant Supper."'

Again, this is a thematically similar quote, which is skilful. It as well gives usa our adjacent clue: I'm looking for a particular segment chosen Lumiere 101.

I searched Lumiere 101 with the broadcast date, near institute this in a forum post from Fish Eaters^xi:

(Jean Guitton, French philosopher, Lay Peritus (Practiced) at Vatican Ii, and close friend of Giovanni Montini/Paul Vi quoted in radio plan "Ici Lumiere 101," broadcasted [sic] by Radio-Courtoisie, Paris, Dec 19, 1993, translated by Adrian Davies in Latin Mass, Winter 1995 [Iv, 1], pp. 10-11.) cited in Apropos, #17, pp. 8f; Christian Order, October, 1994.

This confirms much of what we already know. The way this is phrased suggests that the three mag citations (Apropos, Christian World, and Latin Mass Mag) were all quoting Guitton from something else, rather than interviewing him or him writing directly.

All of this points to the quotation source being on the radio plan Lumiere 101 in December 1993, and and then quoted in three traditional Cosmic magazines that month, October 1994, and Summer 1995.

Ici Lumiere 101

Running a search now for Lumiere 101, not Radio-Courtoisie, yields more helpful results.

A citation in the volume Liturgy in the Xx-First Century: Contemporary Issues and Perspectives ¹² reveals that Francois-George Dreyfus was besides on the radio broadcast, so I add his name to my search terms.

This link¹³ (the links are about all French now, naturally, and then I am relying on cognates, my high schoolhouse French, and Google Translate) informs me that Lumiere 101 left R-C in 2006. That would explicate why R-C hosts no archival content of Lumiere 101's programs.

I institute the current iteration¹⁴ of Lumiere 101, which is a podcast that ran from September 25, 2007 to August xv, 2011. It has clearly not been updated in some time, and there is no obvious contact information. However, given the championship and the date the podcast started, I'm confident that I'm in the right place.

More searching plant me this ancient forum¹⁵ for Lumiere 101 and Radio-Courtoisie listeners. Perusing the forums gives me a clearer picture of the situation. There was some bad blood in the difference from R-C; there are many negative comments nearly R-C's leadership and decision-making, with one Wodehousian annotate referring to R-C as 'obsequious little valets' (translated). This rift will probable go far difficult to impossible for R-C to help me track this downward. (I did eventually contact R-C with my question, and they were unable to find anything relevant.)

The forum also tells me that Lumiere 101 became L107 in January 2016, but I can find no record of this either.

Investigating the forums further led me to this tantalizing thread, where a user, who had many archival episodes of Lumiere 101'south fourth dimension on R-C, uploaded the content to the then-current website, lumiere101.com. I had found this link^xvi much earlier, but it was dead. All of the links to archival episodes in the above forum thread were expressionless, which is not surprising considering some comments were over a decade one-time.

I decided to use the Wayback Automobile to break the logjam.

This¹⁷ is one of the first captures of the Lumiere 101 website, and confirms that the website started around February 2007. Their "about"¹⁸ page referenced an arrangement called Arcole, a cultural organisation about which I couldn't discover besides much information.

I took some of the links to archival episodes from this forum thread¹⁶ and plugged them into the Wayback Car. The webpage more often than not worked¹⁹, but of course the audio files were defunct. I'thousand inching closer!

Ane thing that that experiment revealed was the username of the person uploading the files: 100706jgmarc. The profile picture and name match the forum affiche, J. G. Malliarakis.

Malliarakis appears to be all the same active in French politics. I emailed him with my plight, in hopes that he still has archival recordings of the 1993 Lumiere 101 circulate. He does not, only I am grateful he responded so quickly to what must have been an odd email from an unknown American.

One would think we were at a dead end, but there is one terminal, important twist that keeps me on tenterhooks.

The breakthrough: a full transcription

By this betoken, I am reasonably sure that Guitton was on a Lumiere 101 program on December nineteen, 1993, circulate by Radio-Courtoisie. (Another mark in Lumiere's favor is that one website said they only ran on Sundays. December 19, 1993 is a Sunday, and possibly got erroneously connected with the Apropos issue engagement.)

Farther searching leads me to a French Aleteia article²⁰, with the following commendation:

Yves Chiron est l'auteur de Paul Vi, le pape écartelé, (rééd. Via Romana, 2018) et d'un livret d'entretien avec François-Georges Dreyfus et Jean Guitton, Entretien sur Paul Half-dozen, Éditions Nivoit (16 rue du Drupe 36250 Niherne), 2011, 34 pages.

This is news indeed! This gives us ii huge answers: that there was a tertiary person present, Yves Chiron, who is nonetheless living, and that a transcription of the broadcast was published every bit Entretian sur Paul VI ²¹, in 2011!

I quickly establish the book in question for sale at a French bookstore online. This was a scenario I had not considered, simply was a grateful bonus. Even if I had the broadcast, I would have to sift through the audio of the French to endeavour to observe an English quotation. Having a transcription would be an enormous assist.

I ordered it equally fast every bit I could, only to be greeted with an email the following forenoon that the bookseller "no longer had a relationship with the publisher," so my order was cancelled. I checked viaLibri, and was unable to find whatever other copies available online. The volume is not available for sale anywhere else online. I contacted the two libraries who say that they agree it, the French National Library and the National Library of Israel. The former has not responded yet, and the latter has halted all lending services indefinitely. (Even if they were lending, copyright would thwart any asking for a full-text scan.)

On a whim a few days later, I checked Abebooks again. Despite checking Google Books, viaLibri, searching past title, by author, and past ISBN, none of those searches picked upward the fact that there is a copy of the transcription on Abebooks, from a seller in Bordeaux. Obviously I bought it immediately.

(While I waited for the volume, I heard from Dr. Peter Kwasniewski (who prompted this particular quotation chance). He emailed to say that he had back bug of the Christian Gild, and plant the original quotation. It has the correct citation to the Lumiere 101 broadcast, complete with street accost.)

The proof

The volume finally arrived, and I found what I believe is the original quotation from Guitton on pages 27-28.

Encompass page: Entretien Sur Paul Half dozen

Page 27: Entretien Sur Paul Six

Page 28: Entretien Sur Paul VI

Mr. Chiron himself was gracious enough to respond to my email, to confirm that, "Le texte est la transcription littérale du débat qui a été enregistré."

Summary

At this betoken, sifting through typos and dead links and French internecine radio conflicts, we can trace the timeline:

• December nineteen, 1993: The quotation from Guitton originated in Lumiere 101'south broadcast on Radio-Courtoisie. The audio tapes are maybe irretrievable.
• December 1993: An article in Concerning quoted Guitton.
• Oct 1994: An commodity in Christian Gild quoted Guitton.
• Winter 1995: An article in Latin Mass Magazine quoted Cardinal Stickler'south give-and-take-of-mouth study.
• 2011: Chiron published a total transcription of the 1993 circulate.

Put another way: Parts of the interview with Guitton, Dreyfus, and Chiron, were translated, possibly by the SSPX. These snippets fabricated their way into several traditional Cosmic magazines which have largely been lost to fourth dimension. At some point, in this convoluted game of telephone, Cardinal Stickler said that he also heard the quotation – perhaps he was listening to the radio broadcast.

With the increasing presence of traditional Catholics on the net, the game of telephone went sideways, and the original source, the broadcast, was overshadowed by the citations to the three magazines (although in that location are references to the radio broadcast, if you already know to look for those words).

My Catholic fact-checking expeditions are not typically this long, but this had and then many strange details and dead ends that I was more suspicious than usual.

This particular inquiry adventure was an unusual case written report in that many of the 'last answers' were in easily findable places, if you lot used the right words. The transcription of the broadcast was cited on Aleteia, which is hardly an obscure website. Still, I had to make the painful journey from the original quotation, to the various magazines, to Radio-Courtoisie, to Lumiere 101, to the cocky-published transcription.

It's also a good example of the many bug that plague those interested in reconstructing semi-recent Catholic history: the oral tradition of many apocryphal anecdotes, the difficulty of finding a useful citation, the ensuing difficulty of requesting access to that material, library catalog errors, typos, link rot, content lost to time, how search engines decide what content to evidence or not show, and dots connected in the about unlikely places, like an aboriginal internet forum.

Did he say information technology?

If "he" is Jean Guitton, aye. He said (in French) the quotation at the top on Ici Lumiere 101 (a Sunday morning time program on Radio-Courtoisie), Dec 19, 1993.

If "he" is Pope Paul VI, we tin can merely use our best guess. Guitton and the Pope were close friends, and the spirit of the quotation matches the sort of thing that was said at the time. If the quotation was said privately from the Pope to Guitton, we tin only go by Guitton's discussion.

Postlude: the publisher

At some point during this research extravaganza, I started to see the name "Isabelle Chiron" appear with some regularity.

Cheers to Worldcat, I know the publishing city: Niherne. A search for Niherne and Nivoit (mentioned in the Aleteia citation above) is a moderate success! The company comes up as a listing on several websites.²²

The age of the pages is discouraging, and the lack of a website or farther websites about Association Nivoit suggests that the visitor either has a very low profile or no longer operates. The address provided on all relevant websites is 5, rue du Drupe, 36250 Niherne.

On a distraction, I try searching for Guitton, Niherne, and Nivoit terms, and Isabelle. I detect a dynamite piece of information past manner of a reprinted Vietnamese monograph from Canada. The authors are Yves Chiron, and…Isabelle Chiron-Nivoit.²³

Sources

---

1. Pace, Eric. "Jean Guitton, 97, Philosopher, Author and Friend of Popes." The New York Times, March 27 1999. https://world wide web.nytimes.com/1999/03/27/arts/jean-guitton-97-philosopher-author-and-friend-of-popes.html.↩

2. Society of St. Pius X, "Question v: What Is Wrong with the Novus Ordo Missae?," SSPX.org, http://athenaeum.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm.↩

3. Fraser, A. S. "Apropos." [In English]. Apropos. (1987). http://world wide web.worldcat.org/oclc/475752600.↩

4. ""Apropos," a Pitiful Farewell," The Heart-Witness, February 20, 2013, http://theeye-witness.blogspot.com/2013/02/apropos-sad-goodbye.html.↩

5. Redle, Kathleen Willet, "The Postal service-Conciliar Liturgical Revolution: On the Question of Liturgical Dancing and Other Abominations," Cosmic Apologetics, http://world wide web.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/liturical.htm.↩

6. Stickler, Alfons Primal. "The Attractiveness of the Tridentine Mass." Latin Mass Magazine, Summertime, 1995. http://world wide web.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_1995_SU_Stickler.html.↩

7. "Jurisdiction," The Only One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church building, http://1siri.50megs.com/photo3.html.↩

8. "Libre Journal De Jean Ferré, Archive Du 29 Mars 1999 : Hommage À Jean Guitton." Radio-Courtoisie, March 29 1999. https://www.radiocourtoisie.fr/2018/xi/28/libre-periodical-de-jean-ferre-du-29-mars-1999-hommage-a-jean-guitton/.↩

9. Gaudron, Male parent Matthias. "Catechism of the Crisis in the Church building, Pt. xviii." Angelus Press, November, 2008. http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2799.↩

10. Society of St. Pius X, "Must Catholics Attend the New Mass?," https://sspx.org/en/must-catholics-attend-new-mass.↩

11. "Why the New Mass? Why Non the Tridentine Mass in Colloquial?," Fish Eaters, 2017, https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=79517&pid=1351356.↩

12. Reid, A. Liturgy in the Twenty-Outset Century: Contemporary Issues and Perspectives. Bloomsbury Publishing, 2016. https://books.google.com/books?id=vSBHDAAAQBAJ.↩

13. "Lumiere 101." SchooP.fr, http://www.schoop.fr/ficheradio.php?id_radio=1733.↩

14. Georges Lane Et François Guillaumat: Lumière 101. Podcast audio. https://podcloud.fr/podcast/georges-lane-et-francois-guillaumat?page=2.↩

15. Forum Libéré de Radio Courtoisie et de Lumière 101: Le libre forum de 50'actualité de Radio Courtoisie et de Lumière 101, https://libreforum.forumactif.fr/.↩

16. Malliarakis, J. G. , "Mise En Ligne Des Athenaeum Empty Mise En Ligne Des Athenaeum," Forum Libéré de Radio Courtoisie et de Lumière 101: Le libre forum de l'actualité de Radio Courtoisie et de Lumière 101, July 5, 2010, https://libreforum.forumactif.fr/t1698-mise-en-ligne-des-athenaeum.↩

17. https://web.archive.org/web/20111103220009/http:/lumiere101.com/↩

18. https://web.annal.org/web/20111009061539/http:/lumiere101.com/nearly/↩

19. https://web.archive.org/spider web/20100716160127/http:/lumiere101.com/2010/07/06/la-naissance-de-la-droite/↩

20. Chiron, Yves. "Paul 6, Le Pape Du Credo Et De La Vie." Aleteia: Edition Francaise (2018). https://fr.aleteia.org/2018/ten/12/saint-paul-vi-le-pape-du-ideology-et-de-la-vie/.↩

21. Chiron, Yves, François-Georges Dreyfus, and Jean Guitton. Entretien Sur Paul Six. Niherne: Nivoit, 2011. http://world wide web.worldcat.org/oclc/875034234.↩

22. https://jo-association.info/v2/36250/20020041-ASSOCIATION-NIVOIT.php; http://www.net1901.org/association/Clan-NIVOIT,455137.html↩

23. "Journal De Saïgon Et Du Mékong." Renaud-Bray, https://www.renaud-bray.com/Livre_Numerique_Produit.aspx?id=2941768.↩

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